Bernie Sanders Chimes In On Aetna Ocare Issue

I thought this deserved a separate quick post. Liberals say that Republicans and delving into conspiracy theories that Ocare was set up for insurance companies to fail in order to push single payer. Let’s ask Bernie Sanders

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30 Responses to “Bernie Sanders Chimes In On Aetna Ocare Issue”

  1. Hoagie says:

    John, exactly what qualifications do 58% of Americans have which would make me believe that anything they want in healthcare is correct? Previously you listed countries that have some sort of national healthcare. That’s interesting, however none of them have 330 million people to provide for spread over 3.8 million square miles plus Hawaii and Alaska, Puerto Rico Guam and other possessions. We are also not homogeneous like most of those countries and we have a Constitution to contend with (supposedly). We can’t just wave our hand and make a system out of nothing to cover this nation. That’s the reason Obamacare sucks, they passed it in the dark of night, didn’t read it or reveal it’s contents and as soon as it was released they immediately started handing out exemptions.

    I an most conservatives I speak and read and listen to are open to ideas but you guys seem unable to present ideas without screaming your lungs out an demanding everything be done your way. Maybe the best way would be a “national program” but run and administered by the states according to their constituency’s needs and desires yet conforming to a general guideline.

    We have 50 states, who says they all MUST be exactly the same? Their residents aren’t the same, nor their income, resources etc.

    It just seems the left is more interested in establishing a new power base from sea to shining sea than they are about actually fixing the problem.

  2. drowningpuppies says:

    Why, it’s almost as if this could have been predicted…

  3. Liam Thomas says:

    The numbers have been crunched. The health care industry is a 5 trillion dollar industry…..With Universal health care the USA would have to absorb this cost.

    FIVE TRILLION DOLLARS….okay lets say they eliminate 2 trillion with cost cutting…..

    That is still 3 trillion in costs.

    Of course the government cannot pay this without printing 3.5 trillion each year which would turn the USA into a third world country.

    So that leaves Corporations and the MIDDLE CLASS to pay for this.

    Corporations do not pay taxes….they simply raise the costs of their products to reflect any taxes. So we are left with two situations.

    1. The Middle class would have to pay roughly about 5500 per year for health care and Corporations would have to pay about 14,400.00 per year for health care.

    2. The USA would have to pick up around 1 trillion in costs……1 trillion we do not have.

    The result will be disasterous health care, a pill for everything, and No doctors and new hospitals and new nurses as the health care professionals flee the field looking for work that pays more then 15.00 an hour for 12 years of college.

    This is why the USSR is broke…..they paid for everything for its citizens….The citizens worked for the government………

    In the end they were POOR, BROKE AND DESTITUTE.

    That is what America faces on a much larger scale.

  4. Dana says:

    In theory, in theory, mind you, once we go to a single payer system, while federal taxes would necessarily rise, people would save by no longer having private health insurance premiums. In actual practice, however, single-payer health care systems have provided such poor care that the people who could afford it carried separate private health insurance, just to get half-way decent care.

    More, since a “medicare for all” or whatever program was adopted, would be funded by federal taxes, the more you earn, the more you pay. Right now, if I work harder and make more money than the next guy in my company, his health insurance premium is still the same as mine, for (supposedly) the same coverage and same services. But if it’s all paid for through federal taxes, if I work harder and make more money than the next guy in my company, I’ll have to pay more for (supposedly) the same coverage and same services than he will.

  5. Jeffery says:

    The French, Israelis, Japanese, Irish, Canadians, Germans etc apparently are very satisfied with their systems and their total expenditures per person are much less than ours.

  6. Dana says:

    Jeffrey wrote:

    The French, Israelis, Japanese, Irish, Canadians, Germans etc apparently are very satisfied with their systems and their total expenditures per person are much less than ours.

    The Japanese? Perhaps you should read this article by Sachi ab Hugh, concerning the health care her father in Japan received.

    A few days ago, my 77 year old father, who lives in Japan, fell and couldn’t get up for more than an hour. He was taken to a hospital, where he still rests.

    Last night my mother called to update me with a summary of his condition: He has a compressed disk, it seems (it’s hard to translate from Japanese to English and from Mom-speak to ordinary human language). The condition is somewhat serious but not life threatening; he’ll have to spend a few weeks in hospital. Too bad; New Year’s is the biggest holiday season in Japan.

    I’m sure everyone reading this post knows that Japan has socialized medicine (national health care, single-payer, however you want to call it). It’s not as draconian as the NHS in the United Kingdom or the Canadian national and provincial health-care system; but it is universal — everyone must pay for government insurance. Fortunately, those who are well off can also buy private insurance in addition… and they can use that instead of the government system (unlike in the UK or Canada).

    In other words, Japan already has the system that proponents of ObamaCare eventually want to install here in America. So let’s take a look at how it works in the real world.

    After Mom reassured me about my father’s condition, she started talking about last year around this time, when she had to have stomach surgery.

    “Oh Sachi, the care I received was wonderful!” she said; “I stayed in a private room which was like in a nice hotel. It had a private bathroom. The nurses were nice. The doctors were wonderful. I spent nine days in the hospital and only paid Â¥80,000!” [About 800 dollars]

    “Really?” I asked; “government insurance actually covered all that?”

    “Oh, of course not; I have three insurance policies,” she proudly announced.

    Go to the original, and read the rest, concerning the quality of care that those Japanese who don’t have the additional insurance policies receive:

    My sister and mother take turns visiting Dad everyday. They have to pick up his dirty laundry, wash it and bring it back, because the hospital doesn’t do that. But Dad’s quite lucky that he stays in a nice hospital with three different insurance policies, under the auspices of his brother in law. My girlfriend’s father only had government insurance when he was hospitalized, and the hospital did not even turn on an air conditioner in the middle of August, with temperatures over a hundred degrees and humidity close to 100%.

    My girlfriend visited her father as often as she could; she had to: Half the time, they didn’t even empty his bedpan.

    You see? National health care works great… so long as you’re rich enough to afford the premium level of government insurance and to buy multiple additional private policies; so long as you have influential relatives; and so long as you’re willing and able to brazenly bribe the doctors and bureaucrats who run the system.

    The system is flush with pay-offs and bribery; you can read the whole thing yourself.

    Canadians? Danny Williams, then the Premier of the Canadian province of Newfoundland and Labrador, chose to skip the Canadian health care system and come to the United States when he needed heart surgery.

    Danny Williams, the premier of the Canadian province of Newfoundland, traveled to the United States earlier this month to undergo heart valve surgery at Mount Sinai Medical Center in Miami. With his trip, Williams joined a long list of Canadians who have decided that they prefer American medicine to their own country’s government-run health system when their lives are on the line.

    But just as American hospitals are becoming popular vacation destinations for about 40,000 Canadians a year, California’s Senate is pressing ahead with its effort to make the state’s health care system more like the one in the Great White North. The Senate recently approved a bill sponsored by Mark Leno, D-San Francisco, that would install a government-run, single-payer health system in the Golden State. The Assembly will soon consider the measure.
    Lawmakers should take Williams’ case to heart. Canada’s experience shows that government health care leads to waiting lists, rationing and lower quality of care.

    For instance, Canada suffers from a scarcity of physicians. Over the last decade, about 11 percent of doctors trained in Canadian medical schools have come to the United States to practice. Physicians’ salaries are set at artificially low levels by provincial authorities: The average Canadian doctor makes just 42 percent of what an American physician does.

    Canadian patients also face wait times for medical procedures. Nearly 700,000 Canadians are on a waiting list for surgery or other treatments.

    There’s more at the link.

  7. Jeffery says:

    The plural of “anecdote” (especially right-wing blog anecdotes) is not “evidence”.

    When single payer healthcare (e.g., Medicare for all) is enacted, you can always pay extra for even better care. You can hire your own physician if you want!

    Of course as a right-wing domestic isolationist, you’ll likely object to any of your tax monies helping others even though an overall healthy populace benefits us all, sort of like clean air, clean water, good concrete roads and bridges, quality education benefits us all.

    Under the old system (and still) workers would make employment decisions based on their healthcare options! Free marketeers should be appalled by that.

  8. The plural of “anecdote” (especially right-wing blog anecdotes) is not “evidence”.

    Oh, I am so saving that one for when you yammer on about man-caused climate change.

  9. Zachriel says:

    Hoagie: they passed it in the dark of night

    The bill was published, and extensively debated, long before passage. The problem was the inability to make amendments due to Republican obstruction, which is still a problem with passing any fixes (o even confirming judges).

  10. Dana says:

    Jeffrey, when confronted by unpleasant data, resorts to the typical leftist meme:

    The plural of “anecdote” (especially right-wing blog anecdotes) is not “evidence”

    Actually, it is evidence, unless you have some evidence of your own that what was presented was false. The choice of the Premier of Newfoundland is public information, and the source references was the San Francisco Chronicle, not exactly a “right-wing blog.”

    When the chronicle noted that “American hospitals are becoming popular vacation destinations for about 40,000 Canadians a year,” do you think that that isn’t somehow a datum, isn’t factually correct? When the Chronicle noted that Canada has a shortage of physicians, and had 700,000 people on waiting lists — and with Canada’s population of 35 million, that’s 2% of the entire population — are you saying that statistic is untrue?

    Were you shocked and appalled by the Veteran’s Administration Hospitals scandal? I certainly wasn’t surprised, because the VA, our own version of a single-payer system, was doing what all of the single-payer systems have to do, delay treatments to save money. If we wind up with single-payer, that’s what will happen here, to all of us, because the government will have to try to control costs.

  11. Hoagie says:

    The bill was published, and extensively debated, long before passage. Zachriel

    The bill was not published nor was it debated at all before passage hence Nazi Pelosi’s stupid statement “We have to pass the bill to see what’s in it”. We were all alive at the time Zachriel, we were all watching. In case you didn’t notice neither was it debated and it was passed with ZERO Republican votes. It was never “published” until after it was passed and it was 2500 pages long. The entire bill and the process was a scam by democrats to screw the American people while keeping plausible deniability.

  12. Zachriel says:

    Hoagie: The bill was not published nor was it debated at all before passage

    You might want to not rely on the right-wing echochamber for your information.

    Try link here. (Teach edited)

    Hoagie: we were all watching.

    That’s nice, but try watching with your eyes open next time.

  13. Zachriel says:

    No preview, and for some reason the link in our previous comment points to another page on this blog. Please, cut and paste the URL for an archive version from the U.S. Government Publishing Office dated 1/7/2010, just after the Senate passed the bill.

  14. Edited it, Zachriel.

    The problem here is that what you’re referencing is from December 2009. The bill actually passed was vastly different than the original. They were enormous edits.

  15. Jeffery says:

    Daan,

    I didn’t assail the accuracy of your anecdotes, only that they are just that, anecdotes.

    Your stories don’t refute the evidence from millions of citizens who are satisfied with their healthcare, any more than a story about a Republican lawmaker harassing pages in Missouri condemns all Republicans.

    How many nations have voted to toss out their universal healthcare systems in favor of a for-profit system? None, right? They seem satisfied. And they spend much less than Americans on healthcare. For OECD nations, on average, half as much.

    We can continue to funnel an unnecessary trillion dollars a year to those that profit greatly from our system or we can change the system.

  16. Hoagie says:

    You might want to not rely on the right-wing echochamber for your information.

    Typical leftist. Unlike leftists we actually DO seek out other opinions an sources.

    Then explain Nazi Pelosi’ comment. Your own leader, Pelosi said we can’t see it till it’s passed. Are you calling that filthy Nazi a liar too?

  17. drowningpuppies says:

    The dems own the obamacare failure.
    Not one Republican amendment was allowed into the bill.
    Not one R voted for it.
    Dems own it all.
    Now they want the Rs to clean up their mess.

  18. Hoagie says:

    I’d also like to know why if it’s so good why all the “exemptions” for Congress, unions and assorted friends of the corrupt kleptocracy?

  19. Jeffery says:

    Regarding this:

    The plural of “anecdote” (especially right-wing blog anecdotes) is not “evidence”.

    Teach typed: Oh, I am so saving that one for when you yammer on about man-caused climate change.

    By all means. It holds true for global warming as well. If someone tries to toss off an anecdote as evidence you should call them for it.

    For example, a 106 heat index in DC today is an anecdote and does not prove global warming. The flooding in Louisiana this week does not prove AGW. A December snow in Michigan neither proves nor disproves AGW.

    On the other hand, overwhelming evidence (not just anecdotes) supports the theory that increased atmospheric CO2 is causing the Earth’s surface to warm.

  20. drowningpuppies says:

    How many ocare exchanges have failed?
    At what cost to taxpayers?
    Where is that average $2500 savings in premiums?

  21. Liam Thomas says:

    On the other hand, overwhelming evidence (not just anecdotes) supports the theory that increased atmospheric CO2 is causing the Earth’s surface to warm.

    What evidence>? I Pointed out a geologic reason for the sea rise on the Eastern Seaboard that the left uses as evidence that the oceans are rising…..when in reality the eastern seaboard is geologically sinking.

    Is my evidence supported by the USGS an Anecdot and the Alarmist claim that tidal gauges show a 3 mm rise in the ocean is a sure fire EVIDENCE that the seas are rising.

    Your leftist agenda is full of half truths and misdirection Saul Alinsky Bullshit claimed as truth and when called on it you deflect the debate to the next thing or challenge my spelling.

    So I say again……what evidence. There is certainly evidence that co2 is now over 400 ppm in the atmosphere but what evidence is present that THIS is the reason for all the anecdotal observations that we are indeed warming AS A RESULT OF….CO2.

  22. Dana says:

    Jeffrey wrote:

    How many nations have voted to toss out their universal healthcare systems in favor of a for-profit system? None, right? They seem satisfied.

    It’s not tat they are satisfied, it’s that they have been trapped. That is why I said, a long time ago, that the purpose of Obysmalcare wasn’t to actually work, but to establish the principle that the federal government is ultimately responsible for people’s health care, and yup,. that has been established, for almost seven miserable years now.

    So, no, even if Donald Trump wins, and the Republicans control both Houses of Congress, there won’t be any repeal of Obaminablecare, not without some sort of universal coverage replacement.

    But it’s still the wrong thing to do.

  23. Zachriel says:

    William Teach: The bill actually passed was vastly different than the original.

    The Senate version, passed in December 2009, was the final version of the bill. Due to the election of Scott Brown to finish Edward Kennedy’s Senate term, the Democrats no longer had a filibuster-proof majority, meaning there was no longer an opportunity to modify the bill before sending it to the House.

    The House approved the final version, and it was signed into law in March 2010. (Thank you for fixing the link.)

    Hoagie: Unlike leftists we actually DO seek out other opinions an sources.

    Please note that we have sought out your opinion; however, your previous claim was inaccurate. We provided evidence, which you have ignored.

  24. drowningpuppies says:

    To quote Democrat Rep. Alcee Hastings of the House Rules Committee during the bill process: “We’re making up the rules as we go along.”

    http://www.briansussman.com/politics/how-obamacare-became-law/

  25. Zachriel says:

    drowningpuppies: “We’re making up the rules as we go along.”

    Do you have a primary source for this quote? What rules in particular?

  26. Hoagie says:

    Please note that we have sought out your opinion; however, your previous claim was inaccurate. We provided evidence, which you have ignored.

    Your claim that I ignored your argument is in itself inaccurate. I saw your attempt at refutation and I am looking around for evidence. The link you furnished won’t work for me.

    However, that wasn’t the point anyway. The point was that the democrat leftist radicals immediately went to a national, all-inclusive plan rather than considering more modest and more workable solutions because they weren’t passing a healthcare bill they were passing a government works bill. Why is looking for the minimalist solution such a bad thing to you?

  27. Zachriel says:

    drowningpuppies: The guy himself…

    You forgot to answer which rules were broken.

    Hoagie: The link you furnished won’t work for me.

    It worked for William Teach, who properly embedded the link. It is an archival copy of the final bill archived on 1/7/2010, more than two months before it was signed into law.

    web.archive.org/web/20100107210041/http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-111hr3590EAS/pdf/BILLS-111hr3590EAS.pdf

    Hoagie: The point was that the democrat leftist radicals immediately went to a national, all-inclusive plan rather than considering more modest and more workable solutions

    Your claim was “The bill was not published nor was it debated at all before passage”. That was false. Now, you may disagree with the law, but the text was available, and widely debated in the U.S. before it became law.

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