The official blogburst topic from Stop The ACLU by Gribbit.
Why Isn’t A Town Enforcing Their Law-The ACLU
The ACLU is watching a small town in western Pennsylvania because of its curfew law. Each night at 9:45 pm the Trafford fire station blows its alert sirens to alert teens and other children that the curfew is fast approaching. All persons under the age of 18 are to be home by 10:00 pm according to local law. But with the ACLU looking over their shoulder, the town has been reluctant to enforce their law.
This stems from one child. Again it is the needs of the one trumping the needs of the many. Mr. Spock wouldn’t agree with this total lack of logic but that is the principle that the ACLU operates under.
Under threat of lawsuit by the American Civil Liberties Union, it appears the borough has backed off its curfew ordinance. Neither Mayor Kevin Karazsia nor solicitor Bill Ferraro would confirm or deny if the long-time curfew ordinance is being enforced — but this much is certain: In December, the ACLU contacted Ferraro after the Toocheck family complained to the organization. Attorney David Millstein, a volunteer at the ACLU who handled the case, said as far as he knows the ordinance is not being enforced. If he learns otherwise, he said, the ACLU will sue. Craig Toocheck contacted the organization after one of his sons was cited a second time under the Trafford curfew ordinance. The first incident occurred last summer when the boy, then 15, walked to the 7-11 without his parents’ permission around midnight. Craig Toocheck was asleep in bed when a police officer brought his son to the door. Surprised that his son had gone in search of a Slurpee without informing him, Toocheck agreed to pay the $73 fine and grounded his son — an active Boy Scout who posted a 4.11 grade point average on his last Penn-Trafford report card — for two weeks. The second incident occurred last August when the boy was watching a pre-season Steelers game at a friend’s house. At half-time — and with his parents permission — he left to walk home. The time was 10 minutes after curfew. Craig Toocheck said his son was a half block from his home on Edgewood Avenue when he was picked up by police. A week later, a fine for $98 was in the Toocheck mailbox. Millstein called the fine and the curfew ridiculous. “The whole thing was unconstitutional,†he said. “There’s no question about it.†The curfew violates one of the rights in the First Amendment — the freedom of assembly, Millstein said. “To impose a curfew on a person just because they’re a juvenile… It’s just not constitutional.†Toocheck said the curfew also violates the Fourth, Fifth, Ninth, and 14th Amendments — which protect against deprivation of liberty without due process of law and includes the right to travel. SOURCE
Ok, let me get this straight, the ACLU is claiming that a reasonable curfew of 10:00 pm for what we can all agree are minor children violates the 4th, 5th, 9th, and 14th Amendments? How absurd. Next you will be telling me that a 9 year old has the right to buy a semi-automatic handgun provided they are willing to wait the required waiting period. I won’t hold my breath on that one but it falls in line with the same logic.
Here are the facts folks:
Children under the age of 18 are just that – CHILDREN. And are subject to the regulations that the home and society puts on them. Persons under the age of 18 (CHILDREN) cannot legally marry without consent. Children cannot own guns, securities, land, vote, and are not subject to taxation all because of their age.
At which point to we throw caution to the wind and teach youngsters the meaning of law and order? If children are subjected to the same freedoms that adults enjoy, then why is it that no one is standing in line to represent children who are forced to live under their parents’ regulations as false imprisonment? After all, a responsible parent would restrict where and when a child can travel outside of the home right?
If you leave children alone for any amount of time, their inner demons will get the better of them and trouble usually follows. As someone who lives with 2 teenage boys I can tell you, that if left to their devices there would be holes in the walls, broken fixtures, parties 24/7 where all kinds of unspeakable activities would be occuring, and that is just the tip of the iceburg. Teenage children often times need to be restricted more than younger children.
The ACLU will stop at nothing to remove all barriers to free will in order to create chaos. Once that is achieved they will swoop in utilizing their dupes in black vestments to create laws restricting all liberties to restore order and a Communist state will be born.
The needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few or the one. In this case the needs of Trafford to be safe and secure in their community without an unchecked unregulated youth population roaming the streets causing trouble at all times of the night out weight any presumption that a minor child has to Constitutional rights to travel. And if I remember right, there is no such right in the 4th, 5th, 9th, or 14th Amendments.
The ACLU needs to allow local governments decide what is best for the citizens of their locality. The beautiful thing about a representative democracy, if you don’t like the decisions being made on your behalf, you can vote the decision maker out of office. Hence the terms government of the people, by the people, and for the people.
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“Start brain before engaging mouth.” For anyone to comment, said anyone SHOULD know what they speak of. It’s common to express ones FEELINGS, but feelings don’t always express facts. Permit me to help you. Concerning the United States Constitution, Amendment 1 states: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or the RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE TO PEACEABLY TO ASSEMBLE, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. 4 states: (briefly) …AGAINST UNREASONABLE SEARCH AND SEIZURES… 5 states (briefly): NOR BE DEPRIVED OF LIFE, LIBERTY, OR PROPERTY… 9 states (IMPORTANT!): THE ENUMERATION IN THE CONSTITUTION OF CERTAIN RIGHTS SHALL NOT BE CONSTRUED TO DENY OR DISPARAGE OTHERS RETAINED BY THE PEOPLE. Last, but not least, Amendment 14 states (briefly): ALL PERSONS born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, ARE citizens of the United States and of the State in wherein they reside. NO STATE SHALL MAKE OR ENFORCE ANY LAW which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States… This is to say youth too! (READ IT FOR YOURSELF PEOPLE AND BECOME INFORMED!) My child broke a “house rule” by going for a Slushee without letting us know and was punished for it. Parents are the ultimate LAW when it comes to their own children. The state or local municipality should in NO WAY interfere with the way a parent morally and lawfully raises their children. Also, we OBEY the law, as a very thoughtful and courteous Judge observed. The Judge stated, If you don’t agree with the law, don’t just break it, have it changed. We are going about having it PROPERLY changed. PARENT YOUR CHILD PROPERLY AND WHEN THEY GROW UP, THEY WON’T DEPART FROM THE PROPER TEACHINGS YOU PROVIDED! Duh, People! Thomas Jefferson wrote “A society that will trade a little liberty for a little order will lose both, and deserve neither.” AND “In questions of power, then, let no more be heard of confidence in man, but bind him down from mischief by the chains of the Constitution.” Heed his wise words, for this is what America is about, Liberty for ALL. God Bless the USA.
just an fyi:
— You most likely don’t live in Trafford, where there is no rampant running of children causing havoc after dark. There are no terribly serious crimes, and most of the town is generally quiet, save for a small part away from where we live.
–I’m not saying kids should be running free all over the place at night. But they SHOULD be allowed to walk home after watching football at 10:10, and, even if it’s a bit retarded, to go to 7-11 three blocks away at midnight, as long as there’s no drug-dealing, vandalism, or such along the way. 11 or 12 would be a more understandable curfew anyway.
–This isn’t the “need of one” outweighing the needs of many; it’s happened to others, only one person has involved the ACLU.
–Seeing as there was no harm being done or intended in either post-10:00 outing, the 2 fines totaling $171 is ridiculous! And since there is effectively no chance to argue against a curfew violation, it violates the whole “due process†bit of the constitution.
–What the town wants to do is create a “no tolerance policy” where if you’re out past 10:00, it must be assumed you’re causing trouble, and you must be fined. What the ordinance was TRYING to do is create a valid reason to catch kids for other crimes. i.e., if you have drugs on you, they can’t just search you then and there. But if you’re out past 10, then you’re breaking one law, so they can search you and nab you for another. It’s like the seat-belt law: they can’t arrest you for just not wearing a seatbelt, but if something else is also wrong, say your tail-light is out, they can get your for both. Ok, so if you’re out past 10, then sure, question the person, sure! But as NOTHING was being done wrong in either case, no fine is just.
–Minors can drive (PA law dictates those with Jr licenses can be out to 11), pay taxes (if they work) — and can’t marry, buy cigarettes, get tattoos without consent, etc because those actions involve long-term consequences which are not present with the BUYING of a SLURPEE. And don’t even try to relate this to buying a semi-automatic weapon, there’s noooo way! Speaking of driving, evidently you could drive around causing havoc after 10, but not walk causing havoc. What the heck?
–While they can crack down on minors walking outside during the night-time, the curfew can’t cut down on the offenses of non-minors. The curfew won’t significantly stop any juvenile crime we might have in this town any more than using common sense or increased police presence in areas targeted to have problems.
–(rant) 10:00 is quite early considering that teens tend to stay up until 12 at least, especially in the summer. This is due to changes in hormones, and it’s proven that this is not necessarily voluntary – kids CANNOT fall asleep too early or wake up too early in teenage years, which has lots to do with lower school performance, but anyway…. what are they supposed to do from 10 till going to sleep? You can’t go to your friend’s because you can’t walk home past 10. (By the way, being able to walk places easily is one of the nice things of living in a not-so-suburban like Trafford. This sort of takes that away from kids who have no cars and such) We used to all gather in the church parking lot and play a game of release in the summer. We never wanted to quit at 10, but did it at least because we caused some noise, what with all our running and merriment. Then we would go to someone’s house and hang out a bit. But since you evidently can’t walk home, not even 10 minutes past curfew for a entirely good reason, what else can we do? We’re already good enough at gluing ourselves to computer screens and TV sets, or we could do illegal things inside someone’s house.
–About the whole conspiracy-communist-state thing, the fact that you can’t even walk home past 10 is reminiscent of communist states. And you also forgot to include the last half of the article, including, [ordinance fails to curtail crimes committed by those younger and older than 18. “If they thought a curfew would solve any problems, why stop with age 18? Why not make everyone be in their homes by 6 p.m. to stop crimes,†he said on Monday. “But then, this wouldn’t be America, would it?â€]
Also [police could effectively enforce it by filing other charges — such as loitering — against juveniles.]. A few weeks ago, a kid I know was nabbed for “disorderly conduct†(disorderly in the sense that he was standing upon a set of stairs), since the police were likely hesitant to make it due to a curfew violation. Not only is this a ridiculous charge since no harm was being done, but disorderly conduct charges carry stronger penalties than a curfew violation, marking a kid’s permanent record for doing NOTHING WRONG!
BTW: our family is conservative, and I also have a disdain for the ACLU.
Folks – is Craig Toocheck on crack? A fifteen year old out at night (sneaking out) and for a slurpee? And Craig and anyone else is going to actually believe that? If Craig really believes this then maybe Craig is on crack and his son was picking some up for him.
Seriously though, a law is a law – it cannot be broken just because there was a football game and why couldn’t his lazy father just pick him up? Children are children and there are laws to protect children. Some parents are more strict and have their kids in by 9:00PM – so, should we sue the parents? Are you crazy? If a child speaks back at a parent – should the ACLU be called when the parent tells the child to be quiet and mind his manners? We have child labor laws yet Craig wants us to allow young children to hangout on street corners. How young should they be Craig – how about 10 or 9 years old and allowed to be on the dark street until 10:00 PM – and Craig, let everyone know so that all the perverts will know that because of you Craig there is not a curfew. That way, they can come here and pick up the young children -maybe you will be riding around too? Give me a break.
You gotta be kidding. This is a no brainer (in fact that is exactly what Craig is missing – a brain). Kids out past 10:00 without a parent unless they are coming from work or a school or social event – are up to no good or are easy prey for those who are up to no good. If you really cared Craig, you would be fighting for the curfew, and from what we understand your wife said at the last council meeting, you should be fighting to save your marriage.
Folks – is Dave on communism?
It must have been hard for you to write, and not use any profanity.
Should we assume that “kids out past 10pm without a parent – are up to no good.”? Just because you were NO GOOD as a child does not mean ALL children are like you.
YOU REALLY DO NOT GET IT! I feel sorry for you. Your thoughts are not right, you live in the dark. I pray to God that you are enlightened and that you will become more civic minded and that the spirit of AMERICA will come upon you (i.e. “…with liberty and justice for all.”) quickly.
This should not be a POLICE STATE, it is my home town of Trafford, which you are soiling with your vile, morally worthless acts of self righteousness. (Where did you grow-up?)
We do need laws to help protect YOUR children from YOU, I believe, from your comments. Just skip all the facts and let your feelings show, you liberal left winger. YOU are worse than a hate monger, communist, loser hitler. You MUST really imagine (in your grand delusions) that the government knows what is best for you! Are you REALLY willing to give-up your rights and freedoms?
But, I must admit, you are correct in ONE aspect of thought, we should not break the law we disagree with, we should attempt to change it.
It is God fearing (unlike you?), caring, concerned and INVOLVED (unlike you?) citizens from next door, to Penn-Township, that support the effort and laud us on towards our goal of letting our children have a childhood, and not depriving them of their right to socialize.
You must be on COMMUNISM!
RESEND THE CURFEW! “It’s not a crime to hang out.”
God bless the USA.
“A society that will trade a little liberty for a little order will lose both, and deserve neither.” Thomas Jefferson
Kevin Karaszia, Frank Bruno, or Mr. Lindbloom;
This is Mrs. Toocheck writing to you to let you know that there is nothing wrong with my marriage to Craig. This stupid situation with a town that lacks common parental sense is hard on any family, which is statistically proven I might add. I know that when I made this comment the only people in the room were you three plus my neighbor Karen and I, So… what other slanderous things are you going to say about me and my family?
The thing that you don’t seem to understand is the good should not be punished for the actions of a few bad on Duquesne and 3rd. The thing that you don’t get is that good parents do have rules and regs for their kids to follow. Whether there is a curfew or not, Corey will have a curfew (set by us his parents). The curfew may be 9 pm, 10 pm, 11 pm or what ever we choose for that night.
If 16 and 17 year olds can drive to 11 pm (on their jr. license) then I can trust that he can make it one block to his house coming from a friends at 10:30pm.
What do you think we are, morons that we would willingly let him be out at all hours of the night? Think again. The good parents in this town are many. There are also many great teens in this town. Wake up!!!!
The point is, Corey was on his way home from a Steeler Football halftime, not out on the street. He was in the house with his friends and their parents, I might add. The fact that he was on his way home and saw a friend sitting on his porch on 6th street on the way home, stopping to say hi does not make him a criminal worthy of a 98 dollar fine.
(Isn’t this what Trafford is about, being neighborly, a sidewalk community, just what you are trying to promote about Trafford?) Apparently the judge understood this as she refunded the fine.
If a 17 year old can’t be honored enough to walk a block to his friends house then why can he drive to 11pm? They can also work to 11pm, but cannot walk 1 1/2 blocks to a friends. Let’s see let me get this straight…they can drive with other people in the car with the responsibility of one ton of metal under their rearends but they cannot walk a block home. Let’s see, let me continue…the 17 year olds some will be graduating this year. They have to have their parents escort them to and from their friends house (which is a block away), but in August they will be sent to any college in America and be expected to be responsible for themselves. Let’s see how they handle walking from the library on campus to their dorm the whole way across the campus at 11:30 pm or 12 midnight with out their mommy or daddy to accompany them. Could they handle it, especially on an urban campus like pitt? And don’t count on campus security…they have their hands full with watching 13,000 other undergraduates.
We do not condone hanging out on street corners for Corey or any of the kids (teens) in this town. That’s why they go to people’s homes as guests to watch movies etc., it would just be nice to know that he can walk a block to home after watching the movie and not have to pay a fine. We think that is ludicrous.
What is most important is to know where your kids are what they are doing and who they are with.
The funny thing is I directed that marriage comment to Kevin. So my question is, Kevin, is your middle name David, or is it Frank David? I see the comment was made by a David. Hummmm I’ll have to check that out.
Maybe it would be nice for people in this town to know that you referred to a portion of us as “scumbags”. Kind of nice for a Mayor to say in a room with other people around.
The thing you have to realize is other areas are watching. Trafford already has a great reputation.
Some Penn Twp. residents have said “this would never fly out here” (which is why their curfew is not enforced), and I’ve been asked if we are living in a police state.
I feel badly for the youth of this town because they need someone to believe in them. As scout leaders we always tried to see the best in every boy in our troop, some of which did their projects for this town and spent many hours in community service to make this place better. Sadly, they get a bad rap.
As a christian I try to see the best in everyone…some of these kids just need some guidance. Something they are lacking at home.
In conclusion, I will NEVER regret my parenting, nor will I stoop to the level of slander in the above blog. Which ever the three of you this is I will pray for you.
Dear twisted Toochecks:
First, I have no idea why you refer to the names above – paranoia is setting in now. Please seek medical help.
Second, You did not respond to one fact in my post or anyone’s. It is clear that the Christian religion you folllow must be the Moonies or maybe the Loonies. By the way, the correct spelling for “rescind” is “rescind” and not “resend” – I guess your kid has the 4.0 and not you.
Holding up your religion as the reason you are right is just plain pathetic. Not all parents are great parents and even the ones that are great parents cannot watch their kids all the time – you know those darn kids, they like to sneak out for slurpees the first time you are not watching.
For God’s sake – grow-up, admit you were wrong, stopping telling everyone what a good Christian you are and help keep our children safe. What will you advocate next – child marriages, legal action against parents for keeping their kids in at night, maybe alcohol and guns for children? Hey Craig, lets give 5 year olds the right to vote and serve in the military. Get a grip.
Answer one question Craig – where does it stop? – should children have all the rights of adults? You won’t answer this question because you are a pretender and a communist. You will tell us again what a good Christian you are and that you were a Scout leader and that your dad was the head of the local Garden Club – all fine activities – but they do not answer the question.
Wow, Dave, you are a bit hostile. (Deja vu? Perhaps!)
I think the point is that Trafford’s curfew is not fair, just, or rational considering present circumstances. You seem also to be exagerating a bit. Kids getting married, serving in the military, etc? That’s not quite comparable.
Anyway, I’ll save a lot of typing and just say you evidently don’t understand the situation fully (still?).
E-mail if you desire more details.